I am considering replacing my screw fixed aluminium framed cabin windows on a 1970 Swordsman 33 as they have started to leak. I am not sure at what point the production stopped for 'chromed' and screwed cabin windows or if this was ever fitted to the Swordsman? (The H23 and H28 seem to have the chromed frames quite late in the production). She has chromed framed cockpit windows and I presume she would originally have had the same on the cabin? I do like the look of screw fixed frames(chrome or aluminium), perhaps not the most practical considering the numerous points of water ingress compared with modern aluminium frames, but if practicality was the ruling factor, I probably wouldn't be a wooden Fairey owner in the first place!
To summarise my question - Were the Swordsman 33 ever fitted with screw fixed chromed cabin windows and if so, is it possible to achieve a good level of water tightness? (If not, I will have the existing frames refurbished with new polycarbonate windows if this was originally fitted).
Your thoughts on this as always much appreciated.
Per/Tireur
Window frames - stainless/chromed or aluminium
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PerHansson
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Scott Pett
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There appears to be two basic styles of window frames:-
The original Huntress/H28 windows which were chrome plated brass. Basically just flat plates. The cabin side's window apertures were rebated. 6mm plastic windows were cut to size; bedded into the apertures with sealant. A second bead of sealant was laid around the edge of the window and then the chromed frame screwed over the top. - These windows leak quite readily
The H31 and Swordsman appear to have anodized alloy extrusions into which the windows are fitted then the whole assembly fitted into an un-rebated aperture. - These windows leak quite readily.
There was an option for "Hopper" windows on the latter frame, where some of the panels tilt open. The windows leak quite readily, especailly if the drain holes in the frame block up with dirt, moss and sealant.
As to Polycarbonate or Acrylic. I prefer Acrylic, it's readily available and cheaper, but doesn't bend so easily. Polycarbonate seems to craze after only a short while. Acrylic is easier to cut with a jigsaw with metal cutting blade inserted.
Sealant:
There appears to be many opinions as to what sealant to use. Polyurethane (Sikaflex etc) seems to do one (or both) of two things. 1. it doesn't glue polycarbonate so the leaks start quickly but 2. it sticks to plywood like wotnot to an army blanket. The upshot of which is that you are forever refitting windows and ripping veneers off the cabins side.
Polysulphide (Boat-Life etc) sealant does not fully cure so tends not to crack. But it still leaks after a short while and it still seems to manage to rip veneers off the cabin sides.
I have heard that glazier's putty is the correct stuff to use - which dries out if not painted and then leaks. but at least it crumbles on dismantling and causes less damage. It maybe that boat builders like it because it's cheap and they get the job to redo the windows every other season.
The main reason for the Poly's not holding the windows is
1. there's a release agent on new Polycarbonate and Acrylic which has to be removed.
2. They are not UV stable and so break down in a couple of seasons.
Still with me - or bored yet?
Sika's 295 UV sealant is the right stuff to bond Acrylic and Polycarbonate panels. It's not supposed to break down in sunlight and is rated for structural joints on Super-Yachts. I've used it to bond the windscreen acrylic on Mirak and so far so good. But bear in mind, my boat is pretty much permanently under a UV resistant cover and I only fitted the Windscreens in 2010. 295 is about £20+ a tube and has a limited shelf life
Another sealant option is Butyl mastic (used to hold your double glazed window units into brickwork along with 4 screws (on a good day) It skins over and doesn't fully cure. Definitely not structural or UV resistant but won't rip the veneers off the plywood during dismantling. It's also cheap and available from Builder's Merchants so doesn't carry Boat Tax.
My plan - so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it weasel is:-
Use 295 to put the acrylic into the alloy frames, and then use Butyl to seal the frames into the plywood.
The 295 should hold up where is gets the UV and by painting over any Butyl might just make it hold up a bit longer than my usual experience.
One last point (thank goodness, I hear you murmur): Acrylic is only available in 5mm thick panels these days. The original material was 6mm or more likely 1/4"
The Cloud being that they'll rattle around in the frame (or rebate) without a bit more sealant, but the Silver Lining being a reduction in the weight of the material.
Finally - to actually answer your question: I think the extruded frames will be more watertight, use the right sealant and they may stay water-tight for longer. The other problem with leaks is the screws. If the screw goes round and round in the hole, it'll leak into the plywood which will start to rot... If the screw is loose, try this trick:
Mix up some epoxy and thicken it. Dip the point of the screw in the glop and fit half way into the wood. The next morning, remove screw, re-pilot the hole and the screw will hold.
If you wait longer than the next morning to remove the screw, use a soldering iron to heat the screw. The heat will break the joint enough to let you get the screw out of the hole. 20 seconds with the soldering iron is usually sufficient.
Don't use Brass screws into the Alloy frames - use at least A2 stainless and preferably A4.
The chrome brass frames should have chromed brass screws.
Cheers,
S
The original Huntress/H28 windows which were chrome plated brass. Basically just flat plates. The cabin side's window apertures were rebated. 6mm plastic windows were cut to size; bedded into the apertures with sealant. A second bead of sealant was laid around the edge of the window and then the chromed frame screwed over the top. - These windows leak quite readily
The H31 and Swordsman appear to have anodized alloy extrusions into which the windows are fitted then the whole assembly fitted into an un-rebated aperture. - These windows leak quite readily.
There was an option for "Hopper" windows on the latter frame, where some of the panels tilt open. The windows leak quite readily, especailly if the drain holes in the frame block up with dirt, moss and sealant.
As to Polycarbonate or Acrylic. I prefer Acrylic, it's readily available and cheaper, but doesn't bend so easily. Polycarbonate seems to craze after only a short while. Acrylic is easier to cut with a jigsaw with metal cutting blade inserted.
Sealant:
There appears to be many opinions as to what sealant to use. Polyurethane (Sikaflex etc) seems to do one (or both) of two things. 1. it doesn't glue polycarbonate so the leaks start quickly but 2. it sticks to plywood like wotnot to an army blanket. The upshot of which is that you are forever refitting windows and ripping veneers off the cabins side.
Polysulphide (Boat-Life etc) sealant does not fully cure so tends not to crack. But it still leaks after a short while and it still seems to manage to rip veneers off the cabin sides.
I have heard that glazier's putty is the correct stuff to use - which dries out if not painted and then leaks. but at least it crumbles on dismantling and causes less damage. It maybe that boat builders like it because it's cheap and they get the job to redo the windows every other season.
The main reason for the Poly's not holding the windows is
1. there's a release agent on new Polycarbonate and Acrylic which has to be removed.
2. They are not UV stable and so break down in a couple of seasons.
Still with me - or bored yet?
Sika's 295 UV sealant is the right stuff to bond Acrylic and Polycarbonate panels. It's not supposed to break down in sunlight and is rated for structural joints on Super-Yachts. I've used it to bond the windscreen acrylic on Mirak and so far so good. But bear in mind, my boat is pretty much permanently under a UV resistant cover and I only fitted the Windscreens in 2010. 295 is about £20+ a tube and has a limited shelf life
Another sealant option is Butyl mastic (used to hold your double glazed window units into brickwork along with 4 screws (on a good day) It skins over and doesn't fully cure. Definitely not structural or UV resistant but won't rip the veneers off the plywood during dismantling. It's also cheap and available from Builder's Merchants so doesn't carry Boat Tax.
My plan - so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it weasel is:-
Use 295 to put the acrylic into the alloy frames, and then use Butyl to seal the frames into the plywood.
The 295 should hold up where is gets the UV and by painting over any Butyl might just make it hold up a bit longer than my usual experience.
One last point (thank goodness, I hear you murmur): Acrylic is only available in 5mm thick panels these days. The original material was 6mm or more likely 1/4"
The Cloud being that they'll rattle around in the frame (or rebate) without a bit more sealant, but the Silver Lining being a reduction in the weight of the material.
Finally - to actually answer your question: I think the extruded frames will be more watertight, use the right sealant and they may stay water-tight for longer. The other problem with leaks is the screws. If the screw goes round and round in the hole, it'll leak into the plywood which will start to rot... If the screw is loose, try this trick:
Mix up some epoxy and thicken it. Dip the point of the screw in the glop and fit half way into the wood. The next morning, remove screw, re-pilot the hole and the screw will hold.
If you wait longer than the next morning to remove the screw, use a soldering iron to heat the screw. The heat will break the joint enough to let you get the screw out of the hole. 20 seconds with the soldering iron is usually sufficient.
Don't use Brass screws into the Alloy frames - use at least A2 stainless and preferably A4.
The chrome brass frames should have chromed brass screws.
Cheers,
S
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Folly Reach
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Hi Per.
As Scott says you are damned if you do and damned if you don't and everything will still leak........ Good eh.
My Huntsman 31 had windows in aluminium frames and I had these replaced about 1995 by Crouch Marine Window Company who I think made windows for Fairey Boats when they were new, I am not sure if they are still in business.
There was another company in Burnham on Crouch called I think Branch Sound and they were an offshoot company set up by former employees of Crouch Marine Window Company.
I bedded the new windows down on an oil based sealant called Seelastic sadly no longer available, you may want to try the stuff Automotive Glazing Companies use in conjunction with a suitable primer, they manage to make glass stick to metal but be warned it is nasty stuff and you will need gloves as otherwise you will never get it off your hands.
Good luck.
Ian
As Scott says you are damned if you do and damned if you don't and everything will still leak........ Good eh.
My Huntsman 31 had windows in aluminium frames and I had these replaced about 1995 by Crouch Marine Window Company who I think made windows for Fairey Boats when they were new, I am not sure if they are still in business.
There was another company in Burnham on Crouch called I think Branch Sound and they were an offshoot company set up by former employees of Crouch Marine Window Company.
I bedded the new windows down on an oil based sealant called Seelastic sadly no longer available, you may want to try the stuff Automotive Glazing Companies use in conjunction with a suitable primer, they manage to make glass stick to metal but be warned it is nasty stuff and you will need gloves as otherwise you will never get it off your hands.
Good luck.
Ian
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david timothy mark rhodes
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Hi Guys
Wow Scott thats go to be the definitive reply, what can I add.
Well a couple of things, I used sikaflex 295 put new windows in Spitfire, its a rebated cabin side and a hugely long stainless surround bolted through with literal;y dozens of threaded bar welded to the steel, result years later no leaks and not painted over, I love my local chandlers they are smashing folks but as I needed several tubes of the dear stuff got mine from a firm called sea-screw at I think about £12.50 or so like all sikaflex use carefully it goes everywhere unless you are tidy.
Lastly stainless in aluminium is an awkward mix, I reckon you can get a paste to stop/reduce the corrosion??
Good Luck, leaky windows are a pain, Ivan and I got the 28 fairly watertight but the fantome although plastic wasn't as easy!!!
Wow Scott thats go to be the definitive reply, what can I add.
Well a couple of things, I used sikaflex 295 put new windows in Spitfire, its a rebated cabin side and a hugely long stainless surround bolted through with literal;y dozens of threaded bar welded to the steel, result years later no leaks and not painted over, I love my local chandlers they are smashing folks but as I needed several tubes of the dear stuff got mine from a firm called sea-screw at I think about £12.50 or so like all sikaflex use carefully it goes everywhere unless you are tidy.
Lastly stainless in aluminium is an awkward mix, I reckon you can get a paste to stop/reduce the corrosion??
Good Luck, leaky windows are a pain, Ivan and I got the 28 fairly watertight but the fantome although plastic wasn't as easy!!!
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Scott Pett
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I agree on the Stainless/Aluminium mix regarding fixings. A decent stainless above the waterline shouldn't be too bad.
But Brass anywhere near aluminium and you can pretty much watch it rot away.
The upside being that if you wired them all together correctly, you could run the nav lights on the electricity generated
The ultimate option is Monel Metal fixings - if you can get/afford them. The only things I can find in Monel from my usual supplier are pop-rivets. Probably best not to rivet the windows in, methinks.
S
But Brass anywhere near aluminium and you can pretty much watch it rot away.
The upside being that if you wired them all together correctly, you could run the nav lights on the electricity generated
The ultimate option is Monel Metal fixings - if you can get/afford them. The only things I can find in Monel from my usual supplier are pop-rivets. Probably best not to rivet the windows in, methinks.
S
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Tim Russell
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Can't remember who it was but someone on this forum put me on to a non-setting compound sold by Trade Sealants Ltd in Waterlooville, who now seem to trade as Marinemastics.com. They sell a 'Universal Marine Bedding Sealant'. It does stay roughly where it's put, but has a couple of drawbacks. Because it doesn't set, it is always slightly sticky where it comes to the edge of the seam. And you can have any colour you like as long as it's grey. But it keeps the water out.
For insulating stainless screws in aluminium you need Zinc Chromate paste - comes in a tube, bright yellow. You can probably get it from a sparmaker or anyone who does mast and boom repairs - it's what they (should) put between stainless fittings and the spar.
For insulating stainless screws in aluminium you need Zinc Chromate paste - comes in a tube, bright yellow. You can probably get it from a sparmaker or anyone who does mast and boom repairs - it's what they (should) put between stainless fittings and the spar.
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PerHansson
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Amazing forum and equally amazing members - thank you all for your expertise and experiences!
I am pleased I can stick with the alloy extrusions to preserve originality and I think I may use the 'throw a dart' technique to pick a sealer from the suggestions.(On reflection, since window frames have now moved up from my refurbishment list to my maintenance list, if re-sealing is needed on a regular basis, hence I think the Butyl option for sealing must be a front runner, closely followed by 'asking the shipwright to sort it!?')
The screw fixing solution will come in handy too as I wasn't particularly looking forward to plugging all the holes! Thanks Scott.
Per
Tireur
I am pleased I can stick with the alloy extrusions to preserve originality and I think I may use the 'throw a dart' technique to pick a sealer from the suggestions.
(On reflection, since window frames have now moved up from my refurbishment list to my maintenance list, if re-sealing is needed on a regular basis, hence I think the Butyl option for sealing must be a front runner, closely followed by 'asking the shipwright to sort it!?')The screw fixing solution will come in handy too as I wasn't particularly looking forward to plugging all the holes! Thanks Scott.
Per
Tireur
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Scott Pett
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Finally found the stuff for preventing corrosion between stainless screws and aluminium window frames - Duralac - I think its Barium-Chromate and used in the aircraft industry.
Force 4 appear to stock (other Chandlers are available).
I shall probably glow in the dark by the time they're fitted.
Just need to get the powder-coat of the frames and get them sprayed first. So don't get me started on the price of Nitromors.
Cheers,
Scott
Force 4 appear to stock (other Chandlers are available).
I shall probably glow in the dark by the time they're fitted.
Just need to get the powder-coat of the frames and get them sprayed first. So don't get me started on the price of Nitromors.
Cheers,
Scott
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JohnSK
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My only experience on Xanthus was refitting windows which had been professionally reglazed.
Removing the windows I cursed the previous owner who had used Sikaflex - a wonderful material but its removal was horrendous.
The refit was not with mastic but with a polyurethane tape. This sticks lightly onto boat and the frame then screws down into it giving a very clean, durable and effective seal. The yard were using it on all their rebuilds and highly recommended it.
Removing the windows I cursed the previous owner who had used Sikaflex - a wonderful material but its removal was horrendous.
The refit was not with mastic but with a polyurethane tape. This sticks lightly onto boat and the frame then screws down into it giving a very clean, durable and effective seal. The yard were using it on all their rebuilds and highly recommended it.
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david timothy mark rhodes
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Scott Pett
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I have it on good authority from Hugo:
www.tapesdirect.co.uk
and look up double sided tapes.
Cheers,
Scott
www.tapesdirect.co.uk
and look up double sided tapes.
Cheers,
Scott
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david timothy mark rhodes
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Jonathan Napier
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Scott Pett
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PerHansson
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